Complex Grief vs Normal Grief: How Cellular Memory Blocks Healing with Dr. Michelle Peticolas

Dr. Michelle Peticolas, international bestselling author and award-winning filmmaker, reveals why some people stay stuck in grief for decades while others heal naturally. Discover how unprocessed emotions literally lodge in your cellular memory and learn the revolutionary SERVE framework that transforms grief from suffering into authentic self-discovery.

What You'll Learn

• The physiological difference between normal grief and complex grief
• Why traditional therapy often fails for long-term grievers
• How childhood survival patterns create people-pleasing behaviors that block authentic healing
• The SERVE framework: a step-by-step system for releasing trapped emotions
• Real transformation stories, including a client who healed from 20 years of grief in months
• Signs that indicate you may be experiencing complex grief

Key Takeaways

Understanding Grief as Physiological Grief isn't just emotional—it's a whole-body experience that triggers biological survival responses. When unexpressed, these emotions literally lodge in your cells and emerge at unexpected times through triggers.

The People-Pleasing Pattern Many who struggle with complex grief developed people-pleasing survival mechanisms in childhood. These patterns, formed to maintain conditional love, prevent authentic self-expression and proper emotional processing.

The SERVE Framework

• S - Surrender to feelings and emotions (with proper support)
• E - Engage with supportive community (like elephants protecting their grieving)
• R - Reframe your story about the loss
• V - Vision for who you want to become
• E - Express your authentic self in the world

Instead of seeing grief as something to overcome, honor it as a testament to love. Use grief as fuel for awakening to your authentic self and life purpose.

Dr. Michelle's WEBSITE

Sign up to receive exclusive bonus content ad VIP access for when my book launches in October!! It's called Empress Rising: Own Your Energy, Trust Your Wisdom, and Rewrite the Rules of Aging.  

Chapters

• 0:12 Welcome to Complex Grief
• 4:24 The Definition of Loss
• 14:30 Dr. Michelle's Personal Journey
• 19:14 Normal vs. Complex Grief
• 22:06 The SERVE Framework
• 25:39 Helping Children Through Grief
• 29:23 Signs of Complex Grief
• 35:36 Dr. Michelle's Offerings and Resources
• 39:31 Closing Thoughts and Gratitude

Transcript

Rose: 0:12

Welcome to Chat Off The Mat. I'm your, host, Rose Wippich and today we're diving deep into the world of complex grief with international bestselling author and award-winning filmmaker, Dr Michelle Peticolas. Bestselling author and award-winning filmmaker, Dr Michelle Peticolas If you've ever felt stuck in patterns of sadness that traditional grief work hasn't resolved, or if your major life losses have thrown you off track from your dreams, this episode is for you. Dr Michelle has guided countless women and men to not just heal from loss, but to transform that grief into the catalyst for reclaiming their authentic brilliance and purpose. Today, she'll share the surprisingly simple techniques that can help you make peace with your past and reignite your passion for life. Welcome, dr Michelle. Thank you for being here. Oh, thank you for asking me to join you. I'm looking forward to our conversation. So the first thing I want to ask you is how do you define loss?

Dr. Michelle: 1:10

Loss is more of a personal experience of how we identify something, because we probably lose things all the time. You know we could lose a pen or a cell phone. We probably lose things all the time you know we could lose a pen or a cell phone. And when it comes to grief or to significant loss, it has more to do with relationships. Human beings are social animals. We're literally wired to bond with each other and so when a significant bond is broken, that's when the experience of loss is felt at a deep core level and it also triggers natural biological survival response in you. So grief is not just a mental thing, it's a whole physiological thing. So that's how I define loss. Loss is the just a mental thing, it's a whole physiological thing. So that's how I define loss.

Dr. Michelle: 2:09

Loss is the breaking of a bond and even if you think about things like losing a job or moving across country to a new place, it's all about bonds, it's all about connections to people, and it's really important because as a social animal, we actually survive better in community. But sometimes you lose yourself very early because in order to survive as little children, we have to adapt to the environment, we have to adapt to our parents, because we are totally dependent on them for our survival. And if we got nice unconditional love and we could be ourselves, it's great. But oftentimes love is conditional. It is based on you being a good girl or behaving appropriately, and it can be removed or there may be distancing. And when you don't have that sense of security that love is always going to be there for you, you develop patterns and those are not really who you are, they're just survival patterns. But they become so ingrained that we don't realize it, and so most of our life is a process of trying to break those patterns and get back to who we really are.

Rose: 3:30

Talk a little bit about now your background, what you do and your credentials and all the things about Dr Michelle, and then we'll move a little bit more into some of the work that you do in helping people.

Dr. Michelle: 3:44

I was really, really good in school. That was one of my survival responses because I didn't really bond with my mother and my father. When I was two years old, he was transferred to Japan and I was separated from him at a very critical age in my life, a critical for everybody. Those first three to five years are really essential. So I found that if I was listened and understood what other people wanted and gave it to them, I would get approval, I would get attention, I would get positive feedback. So I got really good in school and it was wonderful and it worked really well National Honor, society, phi Beta Kappa and then the ultimate in lovability, the PhD.

Dr. Michelle: 4:44

But I was still afraid of my emotions. So instead of engaging her because I knew nothing, I took it back. I said we don't need to deal with this right now and I shut her down. And that was one of the biggest regrets I ever had, because that was a moment when I could have finally really bonded with her and connected and I didn't. But it woke me up because I thought, well, if she had regrets about not finishing this one project, where did that leave me? This people pleaser, who didn't even know her favorite color because I was so intent on pleasing other people and that's really changed me.

Dr. Michelle: 5:33

And so the first thing I did was I decided to make a documentary on death because I said, wow, this stuff is powerful. And in the process of making the documentary I joined hospice and eventually did hospice support groups and then segued into having my own coaching business around grief and loss. But the more I work on it, the more I realize that it's bigger than that. It's bigger than that, in fact. When I made the film, my objective was to help wake people up to this glorious but all too short life that we have and to relive it, to really live it authentically and as yourself, and to fulfill who you are. So that's also the work that I do in grief is that I help people use their grief to wake them up and to heal and to heal.

Rose: 6:33

Yes, through your creative process, you were able to heal yourself, because I just sensed that there was so much that you needed to heal because of this journey that you've had. And I can relate because I was also a people pleaser and didn't get that validation and love and approval and all that from my mom and my mom wound up passing away when she was 49 and I was 26. And there was still a lot of yeah.

Dr. Michelle: 7:00

That's so early.

Rose: 7:02

It's so early and we didn't have a really close communicative relationship. We were both very closed off. So I say that I learned to communicate with her since she's crossed over. Oh, great, yeah, that's wonderful Working on the wounds, my personal wounds, to help me heal and heal our relationship. It's hard to process. I don't know if we ever do process it.

Dr. Michelle: 7:28

And remember I said in the beginning how loss had to be was partly this physiological experience, this grief. So when I was growing up we were not taught to express our grief. We were taught to hide it, to shut it down, to get over it. And it doesn't go away. It literally lodges itself in the cells in your body and it pops up at weird times when you get triggered Because we don't really allow it to release. But it is possible.

Dr. Michelle: 8:07

I had a client I know you were going to talk about the work I do, so I had a client who came to me and she had been grieving the loss of her husband for 20 years 20 years, I mean tears rolling down her cheeks and she had seen psychiatrists and psychologists and therapists and nobody was helping her.

Dr. Michelle: 8:30

What I did was teach her how to grieve, was how to finally allow herself to release the emotions. And that's where I also learned that a lot of it relates back to that early childhood of experience. And boy did she have a lot of loss. Her father left her mother and her sister when she was very young because her mother happened to be a party girl and liked to go out and mess around. So she then was taken care of by her grandmother, and then her grandmother died. And then she meets the hero of her life, her husband, and she's like, oh, finally I've got what I need right. And then he dies young. Oh wow, three losses. And now she has a problem because her son, her adult son, looks exactly like her husband. So every time she sees him, she cried.

Dr. Michelle: 9:33

It was destroying their relationship. So she came to me and within a very short amount of time of finally allowing that emotional energy that's like number one step. Number one in grieving is to be able to allow your emotions. But some people are afraid of that because they're afraid they're going to get trapped in it and they'll never stop crying.

Rose: 10:37

So you're able to help people who have been grieving for a long time or maybe not have even thought about grieving for a long time, really unleash those deep cellular emotions.

Dr. Michelle: 10:49

Yes. So what happens is that we have developed behavior in childhood like I talked about, that people-pleasing or lack of confidence, or getting into— there are a whole slew of things that we develop to survive but it holds us back from being our authentic self, from being who we're meant to be. Now, the reason why I work with people around grief and loss is that often it's when we come face to face with death that we get that mirror reflected in our face about who we are. We start to think about our own death, and so it's an opportunity to use the energy of grief to propel us towards who we are, and that's what I do in the work. That I do is use that as a fuel to motivate people, because people mostly they don't do anything if it's just okay, right, do people? Not? Very often do they go out of their way and sign up with with a coach and and work on themselves no, we think we can handle it all.

Rose: 11:57

and then it manifests, like you said. It comes out somehow and rage or anger or physical manifestation of that emotion, and and that happens, and then we're stuck trying to deal with that and we continue to repress those emotions.

Dr. Michelle: 12:11

So the reason why I started working on myself I mean, besides the spiritual work, which was not enough was when I met my current husband. Husband and I started to see the patterns that I had developed that were going to destroy our relationship and I said, no, I'm not doing that this time, I'm going to get the help I need and I did you make a distinction between normal grief and complex grief.

Rose: 12:41

Can youtalk about

Dr. Michelle: 12:43

that That is about having the breaking of a significant bond, or maybe you know there are different levels of grief and it's really personal what's important. I've had people in which grandparents were the big relationship, so it's the closest, the close bonds that cause the most grief. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't grieve other losses. I encourage people to do that because you know you sort of say, oh well, that was just a friend or the family or whatever. But no, you actually need to grieve all the griefs and so some of those are normal grief. You know you've lost a friend and you feel the grief and you feel the disconnection and you allow that. And some people have grown up and they have healthy relationships and then they lose somebody, have healthy relationships and then they lose somebody and they can get over the grief because through the normal avenues of grief groups and but complex grief and a lot most of my clients have had complex grief.

Dr. Michelle: 13:59

That came to me because there was something in the past that was never healed and was reverberating throughout their life. And it's so. I'm a spiritual person and I believe that the spirit is trying to wake us up to who we are and what we're meant to do, and so I feel like, if you don't get it on your own, the spirit will send you little experiments or experiences that will wake you up and change you. I was really clueless for a long time and I kept on just adjusting rather than realizing that the universe was saying wake up, this is not going to work. You need to be yourself.

Rose: 14:44

What are some of the ways you think that spirit does this, that nudges people in those directions, or to wake up.

Dr. Michelle: 14:51

Okay, so the first thing that happened in my experience, and you don't mind me telling my story right.

Rose: 15:00

Not at all. Your stories are what makes it interesting, exactly.

Dr. Michelle: 15:07

So I went to graduate school, oh okay, and I was working on my PhD and I got my first teaching job and up until that time, pleasing people teachers was easy. You know, you had each teacher and you would please them. Now I was a teacher myself and I had to please all these students that had different requirements, and I had to please the administration and I had to please my chairman of my department. You know there's that saying you can please all the people some of the time and not all the people, not all the people all the time Right and I couldn't, and, and I lost that job after two years and I was devastated.

Dr. Michelle: 15:57

So I thought I was not good enough and so, in a way, spirit was probably got me fired and then got my husband to leave me. And then I had an experience with my spiritual teacher that started to really wake me up. This is another story. So I was trying to please him. I traded my husband, I traded my boss, I traded my father for my spiritual teacher and did everything I could imagine to please him. And I think he was set on breaking me of that habit of pleasing.

Dr. Michelle: 16:36

He was a shamanic drummer and he had these dance shows with all these women dancing probably very politically incorrect now, but I would videotape. He took the video away Okay, no problem, I will be a dancer. So I tried really hard to be a dancer and it was clear that his highest dancers got the most of his juice. So I'm working, and working, and working. And finally one time in New York he's doing a dance show and he specifically asks me to be there and I get excited and I'm supposed to be a dancer, the videotaper. So I go and I ask him should I dance? And he kind of shrugged and says you could dance, but first I have to videotape. So I'm out there for 90 minutes in this cold auditorium in the wintertime in a belly dance costume.

Dr. Michelle: 17:31

But the thing is that this man was spiritual in a way you could not imagine. So everything he did worked in that direction. So anyway, finally, I'm like realize when he's when the same dancers are getting up for the second or third time, second time, that he's forgotten me. He has forgotten he's in his dance show. He's forgotten. So I start started the tears, they're just rolled down my cheeks and he must have sensed. I mean, he was that kind of a person he sensed. So he sends somebody out to replace me on the camera and I go up there.

Dr. Michelle: 18:10

I couldn't dance, I was so frozen, I was so humiliated, I was so angry, so I didn't dance and he just put the rest of the dancers out there. But it woke me up. I made the decision that day that I would never let anybody judge my dancing, that I would dance for myself. And that is the first step towards authenticity, is when you do stuff because and you learn to love yourself, to feel in yourself what you need. And that was huge. That was a big, big breakthrough. Your mistakes are probably your biggest teachers in terms of finding out. What you need to learn, and that's what all the spiritual traditions tell you, is that not to beat yourself up for the mistake, but to say, okay, what do I need to learn from this?

Rose: 19:12

You created a framework, so it's SERVE S-E-R-V-E. Yes, it provides a system for working through complex grief. Can you walk us through the steps involved?

Dr. Michelle: 19:23

in that Sure, absolutely and also how you came up with that.

Dr. Michelle: 19:27

Well, I came up with it a while back because, you know, people always kind of find a framework to help people to understand, and so serve is an easy word to remember, but in this case, serve means not that you serve other people, which of course is people pleaser I was doing all my life but to let the grief serve you.

Dr. Michelle: 19:59

So the first and it does, if you follow these steps, you utilize the grief to propel you forward. So the first one is the S, which is surrender. So you have to surrender to the feelings and the emotions and of course, there's a lot of. You know rules around that of how to do it and when to do it so that you support yourself instead of being humiliated, right? So the next one is to engage. One of the most important things that people need to do after they've had a significant loss is to rally the troops around to get support from other people. This is a wild story, but elephants also grieve, and when an elephant loses a mom, or the mom loses a baby, the elephants all surround that grieving elephant and stay there for maybe a day or two protecting that elephant, and then the lead elephant, the mama queen elephant, nudges the wounded grieving elephant and gets them moving again.

Dr. Michelle: 21:17

So we need people. We're we're social beings, and when you've lost that significant, that's the biggest loss. Of course, humans are complex and they're like well, I don't want anybody, but the person I've lost right.

Rose: 21:31

They isolate themselves but the body.

Dr. Michelle: 21:34

The body needs the contact, and so you have to do it anyway for your body, because your body needs it, needs the hugs, needs the touching, needs somebody to listen to you. So that's the first D. Then the R is reframe. So oftentimes we have stories around the loss what did I do wrong? They shouldn't have left me. I'm never going to be happy again. So we have to change. We have to change that story, we have to reframe it, and I have a very, very elaborate process of helping people literally rewrite the story of their lives so that they see the loss as part of that trajectory, of where they're going. And then the next E, the next is V, and that's vision. Okay, now, where are we going based on the new story? What's the happy ending? Where are we headed towards? Who do you really want to be? And then, finally, once you have that vision, you have to bring that into being in this world. And that's the last E, which is to express world.

Rose: 23:01

And that's the last E, which is to express you know, children are the victims of a lot of grief also or loss, I should say and then experiencing grief. How can a mom or a woman who's navigating the loss of, let's say, a husband, also help the child? That's a really complex situation, that's a difficult thing.

Dr. Michelle: 23:16

Children are much better at handling grief if you are honest with them and you and share what you're going through. But reassuring them that you're still going to be there for them I mean, because that's the other thing is oh my gosh, I've lost my father. Oh my gosh, I've lost my mother. And will you be there or am I? You know, am I on my own Right?

Dr. Michelle: 23:38

But it's important for moms to teach their children how to grieve and they will watch their mother and how she handles it and she's strong and holds all their emotions in there. They're going to think that's the way they need to do. They need to do it. So one of the things that I heard while I was making my films that I thought was delightful was doing something creative with your children around the loss In one case, where, if people are getting cremated, you get those cardboard cartons or cardboard cartons, coffins and decorate it, you know, and get the kids involved, and so you're having the children part of the experience and part of the healing, as opposed to put in a separate room and pretend that nothing's going on and talk about it.

Rose: 24:32

You know, talk about the good times and and the feelings yeah, you know I, losing a partner is really hard and when you have children it's hard because you need to process your own grief and sometimes never, women never really process it effectively and then it affects their children, like we were just talking, where they don't want their children to even move away and they keep them close Right and isolated Right, and it's not healthy.

Dr. Michelle: 25:04

No, no, and that goes back to that first E of engaging with other people, not putting it all on your children to be to keep you happy, right.

Dr. Michelle: 25:18

Or to keep you yes, to have them replace the loss no, you really. And that's why it would be good, if you're in that situation, to get counseling so that now you have somebody that will help you along. So the process that I did it was actually called the process was to go back into the early childhood experience and to actually go back and look at your parents' lives when they were children, and that was just so illuminating. Suddenly I had huge compassion for my mother and my father. When you get this perspective, you can start taking that towards everybody you have a relationship with.

Rose: 26:04

So even your partner.

Dr. Michelle: 26:06

you know they have a history, and how does that show up? Instead of taking it personally, oftentimes the stuff is just their biography.

Rose: 26:18

And then also understanding what happened and try not to be that way with your kids. That was my thing, yes.

Dr. Michelle: 26:26

Well, it's very brave to decide to have children and to take that on and to be that influential, but guess what? They are their own spiritual being, having their own human adventure. Yes, they are.

Rose: 26:39

You're right, absolutely For listeners who suspect that they may be experiencing complex grief. What are some of the signs? Let's talk about someone's experiencing complex grief. Someone passed away a long time ago, even recently. What are some of the signals that they need to really be aware of, to say, oh my gosh, I really need help.

Dr. Michelle: 27:02

Well, going on for a long time is one of the signs is that you just aren't able to get over it and it's interfering with your life because you don't feel engaged in life, that you're not interested, maybe you're a little despairing, you have no hope.

Dr. Michelle: 27:20

Those are all signs that you aren't able to move forward. Some people so there are some different responses to it Some people enshrine the loss, like, if you remember the Dickens book Great Expectations, lady Haversham, the woman who was dressed in the bridal gown Right, the woman who was dressed in the bridal gown and had the table all laid out with little animals running on the table, because she enshrined it. And people do that. And actually when I first got into hospice partner law support groups the group that I inherited the women there had been there for three years and they had all enshrined their husbands and they talked and they had enshrined the experience of being widows and indulged in that and that's a choice and if that works for you, that's fine. That doesn't work for me and so they pretty much dropped out of the group I had because I was. My focus was on helping people become authentic and to use this as an opportunity for rebirth.

Rose: 28:35

Yeah, rebirth. I love that People hold on to things too. I know we're still talking about that. Things that I realized too is women or men. They hold on to things that their spouse had and they just keep it around as a reminder and you know, those are just things like we're talking like clothes and shoes and things like that.

Rose: 28:59

I'm not talking about pictures, so that's another thing, you know just holding on to those forever and ever and ever. And it's a very energetic, you know, message that says I'm still holding on to those forever and ever and ever. And it's a very energetic, like you know, message that says I'm still holding on to the past and it's not allowing me to grieve.

Dr. Michelle: 29:13

Well, the thing is that each time you let go of something like that, you regrieve, you rekindle the grief, right, that is, you get rid of your husband's car. That's another loss, it's a reminder, it brings it up, but that's okay because that's how you heal. Is that letting go of the stuff is part of the process of grieving. I call it pockets of pain. Actually, in the beginning it's a whole coat, but then eventually it's little pockets that you run across, like I used to with my first husband. We used to do a lot of hiking, so I went out hiking with somebody one day and out into this really beautiful park and the grief welled up in me because it reminded me of my husband. But then I had a new experience and and now I had a new story for that experience and I could let the grief go. I couldn't just release it. So the process of letting go of each of those things that relate to the person you lost is part of the grieving.

Dr. Michelle: 30:29

The grieving which is healing, which is healing when you acknowledge it, when you allow the emotions to come up. And that's, as I said, is what I teach people is how do you allow the emotions to come up without swamping you?

Rose: 30:42

Right. And because you're grieving and letting go or healing or trying to heal, it doesn't mean you forget about the person right.

Dr. Michelle: 30:53

No, no, no, you don't. They become part of your life, but in a different way and disembodied. They're no longer embodied, but they're still there. You could still communicate with them, you could write notes to them, you could still communicate with them.

Rose: 31:06

You could write notes to them, right? You could still Right? Well, I believe in that. I believe that they're there, they show you symbols, they talk to you, they show you signs. Absolutely, you know, I was thinking about Italian women, who not modern day Italian women, but ancient or older Italian women they wear black when someone dies, you know someone close to them dies, and they wear black all the time. Right, italian women, they wear black when someone dies, you know someone close to them dies, and they wear black all the time, right, right, you know, that's like that becomes part of their ritual or whatever, and I'm not sure if that still happened, but maybe not as much, but who knows, in some societies, yes, well, I had.

Dr. Michelle: 31:39

I did have a client in my in a grief group and he was Philippine and he believed that he would only have one wife and his wife had died of some uncomfortable and difficult illness. Show and it was talking about her particular disease, or something else came up that reminded him and that how he felt like he was so stuck because he kept on grieving. This is the reframe. I said what if you were to take this experience, instead of seeing it as bad that, this is a measure of the love you have for your wife, savor it, allow yourself to feel. Those feelings Changed him Like that. It changed him. He was out of the group within a month. It was like he just changed his perspective.

Rose: 32:47

Oh wow, that's great. So talk about your offerings, what you do, how you help people.

Dr. Michelle: 33:04

First, I have both work with people privately, because oftentimes they prefer to work privately because it's very intimate, and so it's a three-month program and there are ways to continue after that. But we start out and we do the surf system and I have very, very and I have a whole program that's laid out, that has instructions, videos, everything you need, and then I help you to get to dial it in. Now, if you're you're a person who can do things yourself and you're kind of like that, I also offer that as a self study, so you can do that. I also have a grief group option that you can be part of a group, and, uh, I think it's probably better to start out with some a private session and, you know, do the private first and then continue in the group after that yeah, it makes sense.

Rose: 33:59

Yeah, for sure, it's more intimate. You can uncover a lot more in a safe space. Yes, exactly, and then they can find that, that engagement with others, you know, and then oh yes, and then it's marvelous.

Dr. Michelle: 34:11

It's marvelous, and if you do the private you also get the group along with it, so you do get both. And the other thing is, if you want to find, get a little taste, or you want to find out if you have complex grief, I have a free complex grief checklist that you fill out and I get it and then I give you an assessment.

Rose: 34:36

Oh nice, oh, that could be really helpful.

Dr. Michelle: 34:39

And then you get a follow up series of emails that talk you through this process of serve. So it's really easy, though for those of you who don't have time or forget, it's just complexgriefchecklistcom.

Rose: 34:54

You're also on YouTube.

Dr. Michelle: 34:56

I am on YouTube, yes, good, and there's lots of information there.

Rose: 35:02

So definitely YouTube is the place to go. Everybody goes to YouTube now for everything.

Dr. Michelle: 35:06

There's so much stuff and, for those of you who just want to get a sense of the work that I do, there's great information on that YouTube channel.

Rose: 35:16

Good, oh great, wonderful. And you also were collaborated with others on a book.

Dr. Michelle: 35:25

Actually on three books. Oh, three books, yeah. The one that I mentioned there was Step Into your Brilliance Step Into your Brilliance, and that chapter is really, really excellent. It does talk a lot about that early childhood wounding and how that affects your ability to shine, to be brilliant. Yeah.

Rose: 35:44

I know that your offerings cover more than just grief, but also like reinventing your past or connecting with things in your past, so there's a lot more that you could help people on their journey to being their authentic self. That's it. That's it Rebirthing and living their best life.

Rose: 36:00

And I love that so love the work that you're doing to help people, and grief is such a big thing that people don't really understand thoroughly. I think when they're going through, they don't really allow themselves the compassion to be held by someone to help them and to help them go through this process. You know.

Dr. Michelle: 36:28

Well, it's our culture right now. The society we live in right now doesn't really understand it. It sees grief as interfering with your productivity or weakness. Yes, as weakness, Because you know, we're very much right now a patriarchal society and goodness knows those poor men have really been tapped out in terms of their emotions and allowing their grief, and it's horrific what it does to men. But if we could just normalize grief as the process we need to go through Well.

Rose: 37:05

Thank you for being here today with us. I really appreciate your time and, like I said, the work that you're doing to help others as well.

Dr. Michelle: 37:12

You're very welcome and thank you for having me on your show. It's just beautiful.

Rose: 37:18

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